In the second part of their interview to Shekhar Gupta, editor-in-chief of ‘The Indian Express’, on NDTV’s ‘Walk the Talk’, G.P. and S.P. Hinduja talk about their association with a spectrum of Indian politicians, including a call from Prime Minister Vajpayee after the Pokharan nuclear tests. Excerpts:

Did Mr Advani ever admit that to you (that you may have been wronged)? A fellow Sindhi, besides other things.

SP: Well, I can say frankly, what we did for him, I don’t think we did any time, anywhere for any other politician. It was concerning the family. We believe in the joint family. Whenever we see family problems, we do our best...

What did you do for his family?

SP: You see, they had family problems, you know very well.

You mean with his estranged daughter-in-law, here in London?

SP: We did our best to see that this should be resolved. But other people took the credit. We are not interested in credit. You see, in every family, there are problems. Our philosophy, or way of living, is that we try to see how we can help so that the joint family remains as we have in our Vedas, three generations under one roof.

That’s the remarkable thing, that you brothers have stayed together when so many others have fallen apart, most notably the Reliance brothers. GP, did Mr Advani ever express gratitude for what you did for him, by way of helping solve his family problems here?

GP: I should be giving compliments to him. He appreciated and he thanked.

But did he ever express regret for the whole Bofors story?

GP: I never discussed the subject with him because I thought he knew what was going on and if he had to do anything, he would do it. But when we did this, it was not against any expectations.

Would you tell me a little more about what happened after Pokharan II; you know, about how Brajesh Mishra came here and he had no access because he had been cut off and blackballed.

GP: About that, I can tell you. We got a call in the early morning from Delhi from the Prime Minister’s Office...

Was the prime minister on the line?

GP: Of course he was on the line. He requested that we be helpful that at least a meeting could take place. So whatever was possible from our side, we did our best. Early morning to try to get the highest authorities of two different parts of the world and try to help the situation...

Must have been a heady feeling.

GP: And I will tell you, the G-8 meeting was to take place and we did the best that was possible. I don’t want to take any credit for it because I felt that what we were doing was our duty.

Who set up that meeting for Brajesh Mishra with Tony Blair?

GP: We set it up; he could have done it himself also. He was the principal secretary to the prime minister...

You’re a diplomat without diplomatic immunity.

GP: (Laughs.) It’s on record we were with him when the meeting took place.

SP, that letter you wrote to Tony Blair at that time, some people think it was much too chummy.

SP: That, I’ll tell you, I had forecasted. I had gone to China, to Pakistan, to India to see what is going on. I knew that India is bringing out this nuclear thing. I had brought to the attention...

Did you ever get a word of gratitude after this Brajesh meeting?

GP: We got appreciation; I don’t think it was by letter, but it was verbal from both of them.

From Tony Blair, and Mr Vajpayee?

GP: I can’t remember Tony Blair, but Vajpayee and Mishra, yes.

But, you know, having done all that, it would have to be a very brave Government of India to give you a Padma award. A bit like Dhirubhai Ambani.

GP: Look, we have never believed in awards. If someone has to give awards, it has to be the big boss. I do not think we have ever lobbied or even asked for it. I remember when the India and Iran (relations) were cemented, Mrs Gandhi...

SP: The Shah and Mrs Gandhi, both (said we should be) political and economic advisors between India and Iran. We said: if you want results, we should have no such title.

But today, if the Government of India, if Dr Manmohan Singh asks you, SP, GP, help me solve this little problem in Iran, because the Americans want me to vote, my allies don’t want me to vote; it is vital for me to keep my relationship with America, it is vital for India...

GP: I can tell you one thing, Shekharji, we have a very high respect and regard for Dr Manmohan Singh. If he tells us anything, we will at least try to do our best. And, in my view, even today Dr Manmohan Singh is well respected in Iran and India is well respected. And, even today, if they play a good role, not only the Indo-Iran relationship will survive, but even the West will be helped.

GP, you knew Mrs Gandhi. How did Rajiv Gandhi differ from her? What was the essential difference between the two?

GP: You see, Indira Gandhiji was a real politician. The chair had taught her. Rajivji was a very simple and good-hearted person but he was not a politician. We feel sorry for the way he was trapped.

Trapped by whom?

GP: By the people surrounding him. You cannot blame anyone else.

But you knew all the people.

GP: It would be very unfair on our part to name anyone.

SP: It is known to everyone; even you know who were the people surrounding him.

Well, there was Arun Nehru, there was Arun Singh.

SP: Well, there were two-three people around him and unfortunately they were all senior politicians. And he was someone who had just come into politics.

Do you recall any conversation with Rajiv Gandhi that explained his personality to you, or his mindset, his thinking?

GP: We had personal dialogues with him many times, not on politics, but in general, what was happening in the world. And we worked very hard to give some thoughts and suggestions on reforms; we prepared a full proposal on reforms when he was sitting in the opposition.

And I believe you took him to Iran shortly before he died?

GP: When he was sitting in the opposition, we suggested it to him and President Rafsanjani invited him to Iran. He made a good visit there, he left a good impression, which helped Indo-Iran relations.

So you have spanned politics between the Congress and the BJP. This particular bit of help you gave the Advani family, were you asked or did you volunteer? Did you see a problem with the Advani family and think, this is the time to get some brownie points, let’s help.

SP: Let us not get into that, the how and what. It was something related to the family, we did our best to see that it was resolved and had a good end.

Did you ever hear from Mr Advani on Bofors? Did he believe the charges? We all know that you have now been discharged by the Delhi High Court, but did he believe the charges?

SP: You see, they had only a political angle concerning the Gandhi family. All the politicians knew this Bofors never had anything to do with the Hindujas. Their target was only the Gandhi family, that is all.

Because we had all thought that you did not get along so much with...

SP: And I can even tell you that Rajiv Gandhi was above all this.

GP: Shekharji, ek baat bata doon: Bofors is a political animal; it is not a case. How many have ridden on this animal to become prime minister?

Well, Mr V.P. Singh. Did you ever exchange notes with him on Bofors?

SP: V.P. Singh made many attempts to get us to give a statement against Rajiv Gandhi. But we said, we are not the people who are anti to anyone. This reminds me, Morarji Desai, when he became prime minister, he asked us, would you disclose Indira Gandhi’s accounts? He said: if you give me her account numbers, I will do ten times more business with you.

Morarji Desai said this to you?

SP: I said: Morarjibhai, since when do you know the Hinduja family? You were the first chief minister in Bombay in 1947 when you met my father. He came to you for the refugees, to give them rations. And you said: with whose permission have they come to Bombay from Pakistan? And my father said to him, bluntly and frankly: did you take their consent when you did the Partition? I don’t want anything from you. He went and spent his own money and brought all the refugees...

So you said no to Morarji Desai?

SP: No, I did not say no to Morarji Desai. I told him, first of all, she is not a fool to have the accounts. Second, she is not a fool to give it to me if she had one. And even if she had given me the account number, I would not help you. That is against my principles. Tomorrow you would not respect me and I would have no credibility with anyone. If tomorrow even you give me something, I would hold it in trust. Till today, 18 years, 23 years of Bofors, have we spoken one word against any politician? Whoever has tried to harm us, damage us, we have still not said a word.

Have you met Mr V.P. Singh since Bofors started? Have you had a conversation with him?

GP: No conversations, but we did have meetings. Hi, hello, that’s all.

SP: He had sent messengers to speak against Rajiv Gandhi. We said, that is not our business. Why should we speak against anyone? Of what we don’t know. As my brother told you, it is all to do with politics. And we do not believe in getting into politics. Because we believe in bringing politicians together with a good understanding.

SP, in the course of this conversation, you said you had no complaints against anybody, even Arun Jaitley. Why “even” Arun Jaitley?

SP: Because Arun Jaitley had the wrong impression that I was the person who did not allow him to become the law minister or get a Rajya Sabha seat.

How come?

SP: He said I was responsible for bringing Ram Jethmalani as law minister...

As a fellow Sindhi?

SP: As a fellow Sindhi. Whereas he wasn’t aware that we had a big difference.

You and Ram?

SP: Yes. He is carrying that impression and he is unnecessarily wasting his own time. He is such a brilliant, intelligent person. He should contribute more constructively, more positively, more in the interests of the country, rather than get into this small petty thing. I would like to know which MP can say he is above board. Has he not taken party funds? Has the BJP not taken party funds? Have other political parties not taken party funds? Why can’t they deal with the root cause?

It is very interesting. You have been so calm right through. The only time I have seen you raise your voice a little bit is when we are talking about Arun Jaitley.

SP: No. Not Arun Jaitley. I am talking about the parallel economy.

But why Arun Jaitley? Do you think he has been targeting you? You as in your family. What gives you the impression that he carries a grudge?

SP: Because this is what I have been told by common friends.

Those are dangerous people in Delhi, common friends. They cause more problems than they solve.

SP: I have therefore personally met him, more than two or three times. I have mentioned this to him. I have been very frank with him. He said, don’t worry; fine. But I did not see any result.

You know, we would have thought that with the amount you do for temples abroad, for Hinduism, you would’ve got along famously with the BJP government. But it did not happen. Was this because of the shadow of the Gandhi family?

GP: Because Bofors is a political animal. (Laughs.)

But do you think the animal is now buried?

GP: But the BJP government did use us whenever it needed us.

That’s true but Bofors keeps coming back. Quattrocchi’s come back. Did you know Quattrocchi?

GP: No.

You have never met him?

GP: No.

You have never even got the appreciation, say, of the RSS? You know, you have built some very nice temples in London.

GP: I remember many times the RSS met us; they have visited our home and they do admire us for being real Hindus.

And yet they still want you to give them Rajiv Gandhi’s foreign account somewhere, Indira Gandhi’s...

GP: No, I do not think the RSS has ever talked about it. These are only their political sides.

SP: Nobody has told us from the RSS or the BJP to give them the accounts.

So what do you do now? Although your case is over, there are demands from the opposition to appeal against the High Court decision? What do you do at this stage to clean up Brand Hinduja in India?

GP: I think the High Court decision was a very clear-cut answer to everything that has been said from the very first day. We are back and are once again committed to our investments in India.

What kind of investments do we see in the coming months now? Is something the area of focus? Insurance, for example.

GP: Insurance is a big plan.

And you are not worried about this 49 per cent foreign equity not happening?

GP: It makes no difference because, as I told you, we believe in our own style.

But will you be able to raise the capital. Insurance eats it up for a very long time.

SP: If it were not possible, we would not have got in. Raising capital has never been a problem for the Hindujas. The Hindujas are liquid and they are non-borrowers. Our insurance joint venture is totally different from all the insurance companies which have a joint venture in India. Hopefully, as we said, for example, when we conceived the concept for NRIs to mobilise their funds, IndusInd Bank, we said from day one that it would be profitable. Nobody believed us. In the first quarter the profit was $1.2 million.

What you are saying is, even for insurance you have innovative ideas?

SP: Yes. It will be a totally new concept, a new model which no one has done.

I am very interested in these innovative ideas you have. You spoke at the NRI convention at Hyderabad and I believe you gave a paper to the finance minister.

SP: You see, it is very simple, as we all know. The remittances are now rising; in fact, this year, they were $20 billion.

They are rising almost uncomfortably. We don’t know what to do with them.

SP: So the best thing is to convert them into an investment product. The money can then be invested, particularly in social infrastructure. Which will not have an immediate return whereas they could guarantee the remitters. In any case, when there is fiduciary deposit, they have a guaranteed return. This becomes an investment and I would even appreciate it if the government could consider giving them a small percentage of the appreciation of that investment. Then there is the parallel economy which is today at least twice, if not more than twice, the accountable economy. The growth that we are announcing nowadays, 7-8 per cent, in reality is nothing less than 11-12 per cent.

Because of the parallel economy.

SP: The question is, what should one do with this parallel economy, which creates favouritism and social evils that make a lot of problems for the country. It is nothing less than laundering the money the world today is using for the underworld and terrorists. I have proposed that they introduce a parallel economy account in India — deposit the rupees into that account and use that money, again, as an investment in infrastructure projects. People who have this parallel money are looking for investments.

I believe you are now making a sizeable investment in Calcutta.

GP: Yes. My younger brother met the chief minister and he welcomed the Hinduja investment. We are looking at two or three sectors. We already have a strong company in automotives, Ashok Leyland. We see the sector in India as the most growing sector.

I cannot let you go away without talking about another part of your life. You always talk philosophically; you believe in sanatan dharma. I have read stuff you’ve written, you are setting up foundations, you gave a grant to Columbia University to start working on Vedic studies. Are you able to lead your personal lives with Vedic detachment?

SP: You see, in our family no one works for oneself. We are all working because we want to earn, we want to grow, and at the same time we want to give, not only to charitable, non-profit concerns, but also for our staff members, for our extended family. The whole idea is that we believe in sharing.

What makes you happy in your personal life? What drives you?

GP: It is one’s karma. To add to what SP said, I think none of our family members is really materialisticlly attached to anything. We get our joy in a sense of achievement. Give us the most challenging thing and if we do it, that gives us joy.

Well, you have also handled a two-decade challenge on Bofors. Was there a time in that phase when you felt down, when you felt why is this happening to me?

SP: We took it as a positive because, you see, it gave us two achievements. The third generation of our family got the opportunity of learning how to hold the fort when such turbulence arises. Again, we firmly believe that whenever turbulence comes, whenever a calamity comes, there is something which alleviates the person.

It was also during this phase that you also had a personal tragedy, the loss of your son.

SP: Yes, unfortunately. But, again, that tragedy taught me a lot of things. After analysing it, I found that that was a reincarnation of my elder brother. He also died young. He died in 1962, my son died in ’92. When we were young, my elder brother and I were very close, as I am today with Gopi, though we are close to other family members also. After analysing everything, I realised.

But do you sometimes brood over the manner in which your son died?

SP: I will tell you one thing, it is not something that one can say. He died. It was something that was planned, that this was how it would be. There has to be some reason; how can a young man suddenly disappear? I do not blame anyone. And I will tell you honestly, I see him even today. I am walking with you but he is with me.